SIXTH SESSION

THIRD SITTING		NORMAL		30 AND 31 MARCH 1999

VOLUME 5

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, the programme of catering for traditional leaders is very old in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Before the 1994 elections, Amakhosi were under the KwaZulu Government, which paid them.  Their budget exceeded other budgets for Amakhosi.  And they were many in numbers.

If I can give an example, in 1992 an Inkosi who had passed St 10, earned up to R1 141.08 per month compared to other Amakhosi operating under budgets.  They earned only R200 per month.

In 1995 the amount in KwaZulu-Natal was increased to R1500 per Inkosi per month.  Amakhosi of Kwa-Zulu Natal joined forces with Amakhosi of other regions to fight for the rights of Monarchies
which the so-called Government of National Unity wanted to obliterate. 

The Government saw the writing on the wall and agreed that provinces establish the House of Traditional Leaders.  In KwaZulu-Natal, we were the first ones to establish the House of Traditional Leaders, in South Africa.  In other provinces these houses have been deprived of powers allowing legislation that has a bearing on them to go through those houses.

KwaZulu-Natal is the only one with these powers where legislation affecting traditional leaders goes through the House of Traditional Leaders without hesitation.  When it became apparent that KwaZulu-Natal and Amakhosi of the Province were working co-operatively, other provinces with fewer numbers of Amakhosi, compared to KZN increase Amakhosi's salaries so much that in other provinces the figure amounted to R6000 per month.

Amid all that, the State President wanted us to hand the salaries over to him, so that he would pay Amakhosi.  We rejected and defeated him in the Constitutional Court.  Even the provinces who had agreed to allow the President to pay Amakhosi became hesitant when the time came to take money to Pretoria, so that the President could pay Amakhosi in the provinces with that money. 

Last year the National Parliament passed a law for the payment of office bearers known as the Remuneration of Office Bearers Act 1998, compelling all Amakhosi of South Africa to be paid the stipulated amount of R77 472 per year.

I am pleased to say that fortunately my budget has been increased.  I will be able to take R11 440 000 to pay for the increase in the salaries of Amakhosi beginning 1 April 1999.

I wish to express much appreciation to my colleague, the Minister of Finance, for giving me a way out of this problem, because starting from 1 April when the President announces that this law comes into effect, Amakhosi will have a legal right to demand this salary.

If I do not give it to them they can take me to court.  However even this year the Department will still struggle to make ends meet because the budget is not yet sufficient to meet all the needs of the public.  T/E
(pg 18 ln 32- pg 19 ln 27)

TRANSLATION:  The challenge facing my Departments is to encourage the people of KwaZulu-Natal to love and care for the places where they live.  Let me state clearly that in my view, if we do not control the abuse of public areas, the future of the nation, particularly that of generations to follow, will be very bleak.

The speed of the abuse of public areas in urban and rural areas is increasing.  My Department understands that it is not because our people, particularly those who were previously disadvantaged during apartheid days, are careless or do not care for their country.

But, circumstances of poverty and need force them to survive using whatever is close to them.  As a result of being powerless and the lack of opportunities of being educated about the acceptable ways of handling and caring for places, the actions of a large number of members of public, add to the abuse of areas in which they live.

It is the responsibility of my Department to go out on a campaign of educating the young and the old about the importance of safeguarding our areas so that they can be in a state of providing life, not just for us but also for generations to come.

Our campaign, last year, was a success.  We were able to work with many communities.  We had campaigns that covered multitudes of community organisations and school children, which were a success.

Our public broadcast and newspaper programmes were very helpful in conveying our message to areas and communities where it is not easy for our staff members to reach due to their shortage.     

I wish to thank the newspapers, particularly, Ilanga Newspaper and the manager of Ukhozi because our message reached distant areas.  I am grateful for the contribution of Ilanga Newspaper and Ukhozi F M.

It is the policy of this Department to train employees so that they have proper skills in imparting information to the public.  In this regard, this year we are about to begin, employees will create opportunities of developing themselves and reviving with themselves diligence and respect for their work.  I believe that the appropriate level of training of an employee elevates the level of productivity, and this benefits the area and the community where one lives.

This year we are prepared to produce brochures to teach the public about the importance of nature and the areas where members of the public live.  In order to undertake this task in a cost-effective way, we will purchase machines that will enable us to produce this internally without relying on the private sector.

Unfortunately the circumstances dictate that we provide these brochures to the public free of charge, so that the dissemination of information in all targeted areas can be a success.

Department staff at the level of training the public about the importance of nature conservation in our areas will go out on a campaign to all KwaZulu-Natal schools with the aim of teaching school children.

As I speak, just last week we and the Department were at Mbongolwana, meeting with all the teachers at the main school, imparting departmental information.  We will plan for the availability of courses for school teachers so that they can be armed with technical knowledge and skills of teaching about nature in their schools.

We will encourage educational displays that will be spread throughout the Province to educate the public about that which affects their lives.

We have to impart enlightening information and skills to our community without the community having to come to us.  Our people suffered a great deal during the days of oppression with no significant care given to them.  Therefore, our visits and teaching them or talking to them revives hope in their souls.

We are engaged in a campaign to encourage co-operation within government.  We believe that this will help in working co-operatively to do related tasks in order to save the budget.

It is the wish of my departmental employees to have a public training centre to arm the people with skills related to caring for our areas and overall natural wealth.

Therefore, a large part of the money will be used in building and reviving some areas appropriate for realising these objectives.  Time for lip-service is over, the pious say:  "Fruitless piety is dead."  For us not to be counted with those who have fruitless piety which is dead, we are prepared to do work related to tangible things.

In this regard, we are planning to increase plant nurseries so that we can produce seedlings and plants that will be donated to schools and public areas, so that our areas can be beautiful and healthy.

For the sake of financial input we are prepared to sell them to those who can afford to buy them, such as hon members.  Proceeds will assist in supporting and making a contribution to the government fund. 

This section of training the public about caring for their areas will continue to bring together community organisations, big business and developmental organisations assisting communities who want development.  Our aim is to get financial support for the community.

We hope that a community that has been assisted will take better care of the environment compared to being oppressed by poverty.  T/E
(pg 24 ln 35- pg 26 ln 20)

[Truly you would be mad to continue without meeting with the community concerned and supporting our game reserves].
(pg 36 ln 21)

[while herding the cattle.  I did not grow up in urban areas like other people]
(pg 44 ln 1-2)

[where are the warbles, where are the quails, where are the partridges where are the rabbits, where are the buck].
(pg 44 ln 5)

[forests of thorn trees and the trees].
(pg 44 ln 6)

[rabbits]
(pg 44 ln 7)

[I saw a bird.  It is said that when you kill a bird, a calf dies at home.  I saw a wagtail].
(pg 44 ln 13)

[it is clear as the Xhosas would say]
(pg 44 ln 18)

[No, I do not want to]
(pg 46 ln 3)

[Ndonga I hope you felt good when you spoke about our land].
(pg 46 ln 21)

[We can hear you Blose.  The Chairperson will order you out.  I will ask him to order you out].
(pg 52 ln 33)

[Thank you Inkosi Ngubane.  He reduced our work by putting together his input]
(pg 53 ln 7)

[Without wasting time I would like to call upon Inkosi of Macambini who is the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee of the House of Traditional Leaders.  Inkosi has 15 minutes].
(pg 53 ln 9)

[As Amakhosi, we said that was better.  Maybe even the gathering summoned by Amakhosi, that so many are complaining about, will be reduced, Chairperson].
(pg 54 ln 36)

TRANSLATION:  Miss Sithombe Mqadi, I am saying young girl I hope you will grow up until you wed into the Royal House.  Even if she does not become my wife, but if she weds into the Royalty, she would have married me.

In these very few minutes I have been allocate Madam Chairperson, I would like to respond and present my speech with a great deal of sadness because of what the other politicians such as the ANC members are doing.  When they fail in their duty to woo people as an organisation, they turn to mud slinging, doing it to anyone.  For example my brother who is in this House Senzo Mchunu.

They say the Inkosi of the area prevents them from accessing the area to campaign.  As honourable as I am, a member of Parliament, I cannot  go around removing pictures of the African National Congress.  I am very respectable.

I wish to say that when those posters were put up, no one came to me to be your policeman.  But, in the end I wish to say we cannot accept people who act in that manner, here.  We know politics.

It is said that this Inkosi Mathaba goes all the way to Nembe, an area of another Inkosi removing posters.  It is said that Inkosi Mathaba goes all out even to paint over Thabo Mbeki's head.  Really what would bother me so much as to do that?  Therefore, that is pure falsehood.  T/E
(pg 56 ln 7-21)

[Inkosi has only one minute].
(pg 56 ln 23)

TRANSLATION:  Madam Chair, I am saying that this is disgraceful and it demeans my dignity.  In this one minute I have left let me say that it is clear that the African National Congress is on a campaign to fight Amakhosi.  That is the reason people will not vote for you.  You are talking falsehood.  Thank you.  T/E
(pg 56 ln 29)

[Thank you, Nkosi Mathaba].
(pg 56 ln 31)

[I am now going to call upon Adv Madondo who will speak for 10 minutes].
(pg 56 ln 35)

[I used to earn R109.20 with matric, under the KwaZulu-Natal Government].
(pg 57 ln 9)

[Even if it is Mlaba or anyone else],
(pg 58 ln 10)

[Madam Chair, I do not know how many minutes I have left]
(pg 58 ln 15)

TRANSLATION:  This ensures that we will not find Amakhosi and Izinduna fighting over who is developing the area.  If that person is from an organisation which is not in the Inkosi's favour, that person will go to and fro until his/her feet are swollen, being told that he/she did not report accordingly, did not enter properly, did not do this or that, just because they do not want that particular thing to take place because it will show that that party is working.

Amakhosi are being used improperly.  Yet, an Inkosi is suppose to be an Inkosi open to helping everyone equally, whether they are IFP, DP or ANC.  But, an Inkosi should not be used to further the objectives of members such as Maria.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E
(pg 58 ln 29-34)

[I will call upon the Minister Mtetwa for 10 minutes].
(pg 58 ln 36)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Chairperson.  I take this opportunity to praise and thank the Minister of this Department.  This Department is lucky to be a Department for Amakhosi and is led by an Inkosi.  The Department of the ministers of religion is in difficulty.  Those Departments are led by people like Makhaye and others.

This Department of Traditional Affairs, Chairperson, and your hon House, can be useful and ensure speedy transformation if the existing programmes that were planned by the KwaZulu Government could be followed.  They were intended to improve the lives of the people not living in urban areas and who live under the governance of Amakhosi.

Firstly, in 1993 the KwaZulu Government appointed the Land Tenure Committee to examine how changes regarding land can be made, and to make recommendations thereafter.

Indeed this Committee made recommendations.  They were examined and amended where there was a need, and they were passed accordingly. 

After that the government appointed a Committee to investigate changes in the living conditions and a new programme on land ownership for instance, a person should be able to have legal rights for his/her kraal site should truly be his place, and have authority through written permission to occupy or the actual title deed.  This was planned so people living in areas under the jurisdiction of Amakhosi should even be able to go to financial institutions to borrow money to develop themselves.  A law was also passed.  I would like members, Chairperson, to find this law and read it so as to find out what it actually states.

I am certain that if members in this House can know these things, they will be able to know where they come from.

LAND AFFAIRS ACT OF 1992

The KwaZulu-Natal Government also proposed a programm of building courts.  The courts that brother Madondo here was referring to.  Due to public ignorance about them, they are there without being utilised.  Our people truly do not know what the aim was of building those courts.

The reason for that action was, firstly, to reduce the distances that people travel to get to courts, and to reduce the cost for the public taking vehicles over long distances to get to magistrate's courts.

The objective of the offices was to bring back many of the services for which people travel to magistrate courts.  All these services such as getting pensions, paying licence fees for dogs, getting permits for removing cattle, these things were to move back to community offices.  

Another aim was to increase job opportunities nearby so that your children who have been educated could get jobs close by and service the community needs, instead of people always travelling all the way to magistrate courts.  All this was planned for.

Being ignorant of the existence of such things, it happens that people -  you see these people are troublesome, Chairperson, we have the type of studied teaching.  These types of people are problematic because they do not know what we are talking about.

We are trying to enlighten them so that they can understand what is going on.  As you sometimes hear people complaining, saying they want to go to areas of Amakhosi, and they do not even say what they are taking there.  They do not know what is there.

Amakhosi had really progressed with the KwaZulu-Natal Government Programme in terms of community rights, transformation in terms of handling land issues and people's rights.  One could not say that people in areas under the jurisdiction of Amakhosi did not have rights, that they could not develop themselves because they did not have the appropriate documents.  White people do not know the Zulu traditional title deed.

There are people who do not know that our traditional Zulu title deed is not the same as that of white people.  You see according to the Zulu title deed, my grandfather's kraal is still mine even today.  Even Inkosi here cannot take my grandfathers kraal away from me.

You see my grandmothers fields are still being cultivated by my wife.  That is the traditional Zulu title deed.  People do not know that according to Zulu tradition, no one could take away your right.  Even if he no longer lives there, the Magubane kraal, will remain his.  Magubane can fight over his kraal until people die, because that is the right of the Magubane's.  The only thing is that it was not written anywhere.

Now the KwaZulu Government ensured that this was written and legal because that was one's right and no one had the right to take it away from him/her.  Those rights are there, they were planned for.  You must get these laws and examine them, disagree with what you must, so that this country can be developed.  We should also develop and grow our Monarchy instead of criticising it.

With those words Mr Chairperson -  I do not want to waste your time and start saying meaningless things such as those that the politicians say.

No, today Madondo spoke like a real person.  He is learning.  Indeed my child spoke.  If he had mis-spoken I would tell him that no, he did not speak well here.  He really spoke.  He is on the right track.

No, he is speaking the truth because you do not use them.  Government in rural areas were democratically elected by you.  They left the existing offices.  They are not being used.  These are your rights, you should be using these offices.  A lot of money will be wasted building new offices, yet there are offices that are not being used.  Thank you Chairperson.  T/E
(pg 60 ln 30- pg 62 ln 16)

[Thank you very much Minister, you save us two minutes].
(pg 62 ln 18)

TRANSLATION:  Local government develops people physically, mentally and spiritually.  Confusion should be reduced amongst people so that they can be proud of what they are.

Amakhosi and traditional leadership should be financially supported in order to teach the nation about growth and the manner of handling oneself in a humane way.  This reduces diseases such as HIV/AIDS, STDs and contributes to the health of the entire nation.  Let us go back to our positive ways and practice them.

We are very grateful to the hon Prince of KwaPhindangene and His Majesty, the King, for taking a stand to ensure that our traditions do not disappear. 

I hope everyone understands me.  One often hears when reference is made to His Majesty, Hlanga LeZwe (Reed of the Nation); Silo Somhlabathi (Lion of the Earth).  The King and the traditional leaders exist because of the existence of the country.

The Constitution, Act No 108 of 1996 does not make provision for the Monarchy.  Leaders of KwaZulu-Natal left the World Trade Centre because His Majesty, and their Zulu Monarchy and other Amakhosi of the other provinces were neglected by the National Constitution.

It demonstrated an attempt to obliterate the Monarchy and traditional leadership, a place of shelter for the poor people who are needy.  That smell was picked up by leaders who were installed by God, and they reacted.

Today that smell is visible in Law no 117 of 1998 of the Local Government Municipal Structure Act of 1998.  Schedule 6 states that traditional leaders will constitute 10% of those who will be appointed.

Let us say for now, people are still being trained on municipalities and the Ngonyama Trust that exists is still going to be utilised.  The Ngonyama Trust will take the final decision and assist people with respect on this land of His Majesty, the King.

The municipalities we know will focus on economic development and profit.  Townships will have to try ways of bringing together workers in order for them to be close to sources of employment.  Now this law that has been passed is taking away the 13% which was under the jurisdiction of Amakhosi and traditional leaders.

The National Government of the day, my brothers in the ANC will be reflected badly in this country's history, as the government that took away the remaining 13% of land which still belonged to the people who lived in areas under the jurisdiction of Amakhosi and traditional leaders.  A sour history is being recorded.

The developmental functions that are being performed by regional councils are commendable.  Development takes place anywhere.  It is not necessary that rural areas be incorporated into municipalities, and pay for plots, employment and everything else before development is brought in.

The problem of debt to municipalities at the moment is a problem because some people are really poor, they are unemployed.  My sister, Chairperson, the budget which will assist the work of the Monarchy and traditional leadership is commended, it is hoped that it will be increased.  Thank you.  T/E
(pg 66 ln 1-33)

[I thank the member who is now taking her seat, for saving time]
(pg 66 ln 36)

TRANSLATION:  We know that many people, when they listen to what the DP says regarding issues of traditional leadership, they say we look down upon the institution of the Monarchy.  It is not so.  But I will get back to that shortly. 

I just want to ask why the IFP keep wrangling over the institution of the Monarchy, over His Majesty and over the cultures and traditions of KwaZulu.  That dilutes and weakens the historical strength of the cultures and traditions of KwaZulu.

If these two parties deny this, they must then tell me why is it that this Portfolio Committee that has worked for five years has never once been to the House of Traditional Leaders for discussions.

And why did it not go to meet with the King and the King's Councillor to discuss issues of the Monarchy?  Why does this committee have a problem with getting quorums at its meetings?

Why are there so many unresolved issues, as Inkosi Mathaba stated?  Why did the IFP propose the Ingonyama Trust Board which is not led by Amakhosi?  If I may ask, just how many Amakhosi are on that Board?  And yet, this Ingonyama Trust Board is in charge of the land belonging to the Monarchy, the land belonging to the King and the Zulu people.

Why did the member Madondo say that the problem is that there are judgements under the law of KwaZulu-Natal but there is no enforcement?  The ANC is governing.  Why then does it not create structures to ensure the enforcement of the judgements of the law of KwaZulu.

With that I conclude my questions.  If these two parties continue wrangling over the cultures and traditions of KwaZulu in this manner they will eventually destroy everything.  This reminds me of another organisation which led, it is now new but it was at that time the old National Party.

It also tried the same thing.  They realised that there was something they could take from this and combine it with politics in order for them to win every election.  The National Party took the Afrikaans language and the Afrikaner culture.  T/E 
(pg 67 ln 27- pg 68 ln 12)

[that the Izindunas also have to be paid] (pg 68 ln 22)

[The nation's Izinduna and Inkosi Council]
(pg 70 ln 8)

[It will be very helpful, Madam Chairperson, in that people will get support and protection from a situation where at any time when a person has an offence, Inkosi can decide to send him into exile].
(pg 70 ln 25)

[Today there are kraals occupied by other people, because of those who were removed during the violent times.  They cannot go back to those kraals because Amakhosi in those areas are the ones who know themselves to have authority and the right to put people in those areas].
(pg 70 ln 28)

[people live in those areas and live the things concerned with government structures]. 
(pg 70 ln 32)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Chairperson.  Firstly, Inkosi has spoken about this Department.  And now an Induna is speaking.  We know that we are on the land belonging to Amakhosi. 

Firstly let me say Chairperson that people like Madondo have spoken.  He said the courts are no longer being utilised.  They are utilised for trying cases and for political ends.  I am saying, if he is not an Induna, he should not speak on things he knows nothing of.  He no longer lives in areas under the jurisdiction of Amakhosi, he now lives in urban areas.

He does not know that there is no area under Inkosi where the courts are not being utilised.  They are being utilised.

Secondly, Chairperson and the hon House, when we thank the hon Inkosi in charge of this Department, we must state clearly that people are never summoned by an Inkosi to gatherings at the courts where they have to pay money.  There is no such thing.  I travel to all the areas of Amakhosi, there are never gatherings summoned for the purposes of getting people to pay money. 

The gatherings convened by Inkosi are like a caucus where people are summoned in order to be told about the things that are going to take place in the Inkosi's area.  I am saying that must be clear.

Chairperson, this Department is the key department of all departments in this government of KwaZulu because it caters for all existing traditional leadership, even the defectors who now want to be called comrades.  Yet, they are still under this Department led by this Inkosi. 

This Department is the custodian of very important things.  Things that make this country governable and peaceful.

The presence of Amakhosi is the reason, Chairperson, that makes this Department a key amongst all departments.  

Respect means that the young respect the old and the old respect the young.  That is why this Department is so important to the nation.  A nation that lacks respect is no nation at all.

There is something bothering me Chairperson, and that is a child who calls an adult using the name of that person, father or a child calling by name an hon leader.  That is no respect at all.  To call a particular person by name with the aim of demeaning that persons dignity is no respect at all.

This Department states unequivocally that it maintains Amakhosi in a position where they will always be in their areas, ensuring that their communities do not deviate from being respectful.  One will remember that this violence, hon Chairperson, destroyed Phunga and Mageba's nation.

Chairperson, it did not begin in the areas of Amakhosi's.  It started in townships where the community does whatever it chooses and there is no Inkosi, no law, no respect.  That is where violence began.

Firstly, thank you Nomafu, my Inkosi for increasing the salaries of Amakhosi, who, have been complaining since 1994 without a raise.  Today you have been able to get just a little bit.

In this increase that you have put into effect Ndabezitha, you did not discriminate, by giving it only to Amakhosi for KwaZulu.  But, you said every person who is an Inkosi should get an increase.  Even Inkosi Mlaba, the defector, will also get money, due to what you achieved hon Minister.

Thank you very much Chairperson and your hon House.  In this House of Traditional Leaders, there is a Chairperson, a man who has distinguished himself in many ways, the Prince of Kwa-Phindangene.  He fought even before the election in 1994 to ensure that traditional leadership is always retained.  Ndabezitha is the one who fought through with him.  Today Amakhosi will say that they are alive because of the Prince of Kwa-Phindangene.

Chairperson, the violence I am talking about continued until it spread to the areas of Amakhosi, carrying a petrol drum and a matchbox.  Houses burnt down, people were burnt alive.  At burials, it was not corpses that were buried, but ashes.

Thank you Inkosi Ngubane for being in charge of such a delicate Department.  A Department that is rejected by the African National Congress across there, who are trying in every way to do away with this Department and Amakhosi.

Recently, they were saying Amakhosi, Izinduna and councillors should be killed.  Some of the councillors, Izinduna and Amakhosi are no longer of this world, we are treading on their graves because of the corruption perpetuated by the African National Congress.  T/E
(pg 72 ln 24- pg 73 ln 35)

TRANSLATION:  A point of order on what the speaker is saying that the African National Congress went around saying Amakhosi should be killed.  We should ask him to withdraw that because it is not true.  It is not something that can be stated by an hon member with placing proof on the table.  We would like the member to withdraw that without excuses.  T/E 
(pg 74 ln 8)

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson I will not withdraw it because it is recorded in the history books that the ANC went on a campaign to kill Amakhosi and Izinduna.  Amakhosi are not here, as I speak.  I will not withdraw it.  He must take documents and put them here and we can come out in the open to discuss those issues.

I continue, hon Nkosi Ngubane, you will remember...  T/E  
(pg 74 ln 18-21)

[Chairperson if you are able to give him a red card for disturbing me, give him a red card so that he can get out].
(pg 74 ln 25)

...[Hon member let us listen to what he is saying].
(pf 74 ln 28)

.[Hon Inkosi Ngubane you will remember when I went with you visiting Stoffelton, where the ANC attacked you...]
(pg 74 ln 32)

[Mr Ntombela I am asking you, we are still dealing with a point of order].
(pg 75 ln 3)

[Chairperson please calculate my time].
(pg 75 ln 12)

[How many are they?  Who am I going to listen to]?
(pg 75 ln 16)

[Mr Ntombela we ask you to withdraw the words that there is a document unless the document you are talking about sir, is available here and we can proceed].
(pg 75 ln 19)

[What am I supposed to say to the one who said point of order]?
(pg 75 ln 21)

[I have put that person who said, point of order, on hold because I want to hear you].
(pg 75 ln 23)

[Chairperson, because I do not want to delay the House, we are going to elections on the 2 June, let me free you].
(pg 75 ln 25)

[Are you withdrawing that word].
(pg 75 ln 30)

[I said I am letting him free, I am leaving him alone].
(pg 75 ln 32)

[I am saying I am doing what he is asking for, I have said it].
(pg 76 ln 3)

.  [Sit down.  Hon Inkosi Ngubane
(pg 76 ln 7)

.  [I have said it, I withdraw].
(pg 76 ln 13)

[How many minutes do I have]?
(pg 76 ln 17)

?  [How many minutes do I have]?
(pg 76 ln 21)

.  [I have said].
(pg 76 ln 27)

[Mr Ntombela, you will get your time.  I know it has been a minute since we started talking.  Mr Ntombela, I would ask you to again state clearly that you withdraw so that we can again proceed].
(pg 76 ln 30)

.  [I have said it].
(pg 76 ln 33)

...[Please say it yourself sir, because if I say it...]
(pg 76 ln 35)

[I said I withdraw and Bheki heard me].
(pg 77 ln 2)

[No please say: I withdraw].
(pg 77 ln 4)

[I said I withdraw.  I had already said that].
(pg 77 ln 6)

TRANSLATION:  Hon Nkosi Ngubane I want to be clearly heard.  An Induna is now speaking.  I am saying Nkosi Ngubane, you will remember when I went with you visiting Stoffelton, where the ANC attacked you, trying to kill you.  You survived through God.  Shandu's boy was shot dead.  We were being shot at by the ANC.  T/E
(pg 77 ln 13)

[Please turn off the microphone sir and sit down].
(pg 77 ln 18)

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, this time I will not withdraw that Inkosi Ngubane was attacked while I was travelling with him.  I will not withdraw that, she can do whatever she wants to.

It is clear Chairperson that this Department...  T/E
(pg 77 ln 34)

[Just a minute, Mr Ntombela].
(pg 78 ln 3)

. [Please wait a bit Mr Ntombela].
(pg 78 ln 17)

[Mr Ntombela, your statement...]
(pg 78 ln 23)

[Mr Ntombela, in your statement...]
(pg 78 ln 31)

[I plead, Chairperson...]
(pg 79 ln 4)

[Chairperson if you are able to help other people who need protection...]
(pg 79 ln 10)

[You are protected sir, that is why I am protecting you].
(pg 70 ln 12)

.  [If this boy does this, I am not protected].
(pg 70 ln 14)

.  [You are protected].
(pg 79 ln 16)

[this boy]
(pg 79 ln 26)

TRANSLATION:  I plead Chairperson, an Induna is now speaking.  I plead, Chairperson, with the hon Inkosi Ngubane, townships - please hear me out.  Townships, which now lack respect are in the areas of Amakhosi.  I ask that all townships be under the jurisdiction of Amakhosi.  All townships should fall under the areas of Amakhosi so that this country can be a governable country.

So that all this confusion will stop, Chairperson that is the plea I am making.  Ndabezitha, as these people are yelling at me, I do not know if you are in charge because a red card has to be produced and these people ordered out of the Chamber.

These people are raw, they are bad.  Say point of order, say point of order again because if I say you are crude that is what you are, really crude.  I am telling you now, you are crude.  I will lead you where you want to go.

I think Chairperson, these people in the African National Congress have to be watched because they are the ones making this country ungovernable.

Thank you very much hon Inkosi Ngubane for the manner in which you are leading your Department.  You are leading it even during times as you are observing today in this House, when there are disturbances.  I am pleased.  T/E
(pg 80 ln 16-29)

TRANSLATION:  Madam the tongue has to slip because the House is filled with smoke.  I would use my right as an elderly person to pour water so that the smoke can fade away and we can proceed to do work.

I was born - Madam Chair, I ask that Miss Mkhize does not disturb me.

Thank you I was born in the house of Inkosi of Mandlazini, in Gcagcayini, in the house of Inkosi Mqedi, Ngobamakhosi.  Therefore, for me the Monarchy is not a political gimmick, when I say I respect and love the institution of the Monarchy.  It is within my blood stream.  Even in England I lived under the English government and I respect the English Monarchy.

Mr Speaker, let us accept that Amakhosi are the custodians of the land, the custodians of humanity and the culture of a nation, even when they were attacked by the colonists.  Let there be no denial of that.  Even the fact that we still have 13% of this country, is because Amakhosi fought.

What became troublesome Chairperson, is that when Amakhosi were defeated and brought to their knees through the gun, which was powerful, they did not give away their identity and their humanity.  But, there were attempts by the English colonial government and the Afrikaner National Party Government to use Amakhosi to achieve their ends so that Amakhosi would be weakened.    
Amakhosi were in difficulty.  Let us be honest my people.  My Inkosi Mtubatuba the descendent of Somkheye was summoned for a hearing in court in 1951, charged with an offence that his people were not paying tax.  But, because Mtubatuba the descendant of Somkhele was an old fashioned Inkosi, he told the interpreter to tell the magistrate that he was a dog.  [LAUGHTER]

The interpreter failed to interpret and asked Mkhwanazi what he had said.  He repeated saying, tell him that he is a dog.  Why are you not telling him?  The interpreter asked oh Mkhwanazi, who is a dog?  He responded saying, a government that says I should make my father's people pay tax on their land, is a dog.  Amakhosi who were like that existed.  But they were not defeated.

Now let me refer to the issue of Amakhosi and politics.  Amakhosi cannot be divorced from politics because politics is about governing the country.  Now, Amakhosi cannot fold their hands and watch people being governed.  

What is bad about the issue of politics and traditional leadership is that there is no other way that an Inkosi can talk politics without aligning himself/herself with a particular party.  That is a reality.

Now, what should be corrected is that Amakhosi should respect their institution of traditional leadership.  Even if an Inkosi is in a particular organisation, he should know that he is the father of all children, and have a right to affiliate with other parties.

This is what has to be rectified amongst our Amakhosi.  They should not prevent other people from believing in other organisations.  We would succeed if we could manage to correct this thing in the mind set of our Amakhosi and give them the status that befits them.

I conclude by referring to the salaries of Amakhosi.  Even this money that is a source of gratitude and praise is little, my people.  The owners of the land are 21/2 cents, yet the country belongs to them.

When I went to our Inkosi at Mandlazini, the grandson of Ngobamakhosi, I found him underneath the car, fixing it.  Yet his land over there at Richards Bay is producing legendary things.  I said, oh Inkosi is this you who is struggling so much, while I drive a Mercedes Benz, and while your land is as it is.  Therefore, we are grateful for the money but it is still insufficient for Amakhosi.  Thank you.  T/E
(pg 82 ln 1- pg 83 ln 2)

[In Zulu it is said: to give birth is to save oneself].
(pg 85 ln 26)

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson I would like to express my words of support for the Minister Mbovu's report, by saying that for many years, for the four years we have been complaining.  But at least this year, even the Minister is saying that the money has been increased a bit.  He even gave traditional leaders an opportunity to have a bit more money in their pockets. 

I believe we should all commend this and not shy away from it.  We must at least say, it is a good thing.  Because if we do not do that, we will start behaving like the old government as we are now learning that there were insufficient funds.  Questions will arise that when monies were insufficient who did they complain to and who heard them?

This is the time we are hearing complaints.  Others, such as the one in my area used to have surplus funds, yet today we hear that there were insufficient funds.  We should not make a mistake by saying that.

In the Natal Witness of the 19th of this month, I read, Chairperson, that the Department of Water and Forestry will, in this year's budget, put about R11 million for fixing out-houses in rural areas.  He even estimates that he could build 20 of them in a month because that is his aim.  Now, that is the language we are suppose to speak my brothers and sisters, about what we are doing, what will we do and where we come from.

I listened to the speakers who have spoken, beginning with the hon Minister himself.  I did not hear even a single one, not even in the report of the Department saying anything about a departmental programm where we will use this opportunity to train, and that we have leaders who are leading the nation here in KwaZulu-Natal, the traditional leaders. 

There is the HIV/AIDS epidemic.  I did not hear anything; I did not see anything.  I would like the hon Minister to include this in his programme and not leave this to the Department of Health because the nation is dying.  Let us include it here for leaders to work at it.  Having said that, I would like to acknowledge that it has been mentioned that here in KwaZulu-Natal there are Amakhosi who understand that times have changed.  Therefore, they have to take their full and rightful place.  Their full status which recognises that every person is his father's or his own person regardless from which political party that person comes.  
The traditional leader should grow and be above political organisations.  And then maybe what Nkwali mentioned can take place, when an Inkosi wants to join an organisation, he does so without prohibiting other people from joining their organisations of choice.

There are Amakhosi who are already like that.  We commend that and we wish it could spread because that is life and no organisation will ever do away with another.  And instead of that one encourages it without realising that he is doing so.

Last month, in February, we went with Nkunzi and Mashinashina, that is what people say, but I call him Mr Mackenzie.  Those who know him will say he is Nomashinashina.  We, the agricultural committee went to Tugela Ferry where we met with traditional leaders, other Amakhosi.

There is one thing I want to mention here, Chairperson.  The language that Amakhosi spoke was, here is irrigation equipment in our area, but it is broken.  Our people cannot cultivate and reap because the irrigation equipment for watering is broken.  How can the government assist us? 

Now, we discussed the issue completely, truly realising that Amakhosi, traditional leaders were concerned about the nation not just politically but also in terms of feeding them.  That is the type I am saying we should proceed with because the times in which we live call for that, Chairperson.

There is something else that some people say with understanding, while others do not understand it.  I wish to emphasise it here.  As the times have changed, we are living in one country me and my brothers and sisters, a country governed by one Constitution and having one President.  We will not reverse that.  It will move forward, it is so.

You see, we should just accept that we have what we have because we get it from the National Government.  And regarding what we are discussing you see, if the money had not been increased, Chairperson, and KwaZulu-Natal, this year, at least received a larger sum, depending on what the census figures reflect, we would not be saying that traditional leaders will receive increased salaries.

Now, even if the money had been increased, but if the State President did not pass a law stating that all traditional leaders should get paid, maybe we would proceed, and other provinces would proceed in their own way, buying Mercedes cars and big houses or look at other programmes for that matter.  But we had to have another law passed when the money increased to direct affairs accordingly.  

We have to understand that this is happening because we are in a country, governed by one Constitution, with one President.  We cannot run away from that.

Now, Chairperson I heard clearly when the Minister presented his report.  He even made an example that I believe the minister of religion next to him greatly concurred with.  I also bear testimony to it but the only area where I differ is where he said religious people say: fruitless piety is dead.

I would say the Bible which we believe to be the word says fruitless piety is dead.  I clearly heard him there, because this goes along the same lines as this saying: "Actions speak louder than words".

I clearly heard him there.  I heard about the training programmes and I even heard him thanking the media.  But, I did not hear all to well when he spoke about the newspaper that just yesterday published a well known story.  I took it that the Minister went overboard.  He probably last read Ilanga of Natal newspaper the day before yesterday.  At least the hon Minister should have concluded by talking about the newspaper and Ukhozi, which broadcasts news.

But, then everyone has the right to say whatever he/she wants.

No, I will not commend Ilanga for what is happening.  Before my time runs out Chairperson, I wish to briefly talk about what the acting Chairperson said.  It should be known that Gabhisa is still present as the Chairperson of this Portfolio Committee.  We have not heard that he is no longer there.

I concur with him that sometimes things do go well in the Committee.  It is either members do not attend or they arrive late.  I will also do as he does.  Anyone who likes to, should go and look at the register to see which party's members tend to miss meetings.

He also knows.  I remember that one day when the acting Chairperson had not arrived and the Chairperson was also absent, it became necessary to share an alternative.  It was clear that that was problematic.  So, I agree when he says something needs to be corrected there.

Regarding the removal of posters, he spoke of.  I heard clearly where he said it is a disgrace and a shame to find...  T/E
(pg 87 ln 34- pg 89 ln 31)

... [I wish to hear whether the hon...]
(pg 89 ln 35)

[I do not hear you clearly hon member].
(pg 90 ln 1)

[I wish to know whether the hon Nyambose will take a question]?
(pg 90 ln 3)

[No, I will not take a question coming from the Inkosi who is the Acting Chairperson as long as I still have time.  I want to hear what he has to say.  Let me proceed].
(pg 90 ln 7)

[I do not know Chairperson, where they got this mad man.  I wish to know where the Inkosi who is acting has become my name...]
(pg 90 ln 12)

[By the way you are of the same family].
(pg 90 ln 26)

TRANSLATION:  I do not wish to do something he will not like.  There are those Chairperson, who like the pictures on the posters of that large organisation.  We should not be surprised my brothers if they do not take them down because they do not want people to see them.  They just like the pictures and the accompanying messages.  Some are in their homes.

I am saying, those who want them should ask for them.  We will give them.  They should not take them down on their own.  There is something that Inkosi....

I khulisa Nkosi here, the hon Rev Mtetwa, the Black Umfolozi, Inkethabawela, said...

Yes.  He spoke about traditional courts.  I wish to make a distinction.  It is Hlanga loMhlabathi combined this that do not go well together, things that used to be done or are being done by the magistrate courts.  No, they will not be done at traditional courts.  I thought that when the sun is up or when it rains they should be able to find shelter, but if.... T/E
(pg 90 ln 31- pg 91 ln   4)

TRANSLATION: Excuse me Chairperson.  Do not contradict me my child if you did not clearly hear me - you should come to me, and I will explain to you.  I said the aim of building the courts was to get the people working in courts to be trained here and for those services to be brought back here.  I was not saying that is what is happening because you ran away.  T/E
(pg 91 ln 10-12)

TRANSLATION:  No, I hope Chairperson, that my minute is not over, let me finish.

No, I will not get into this issue.  What I wanted to say was that there are criminal cases that just cannot be heard in traditional courts.  So that is where I saw a distinction.  But, everything has been said.  Thank you Chairperson.  I will conclude because you said my minute is over.  T/E
(pg 91 ln 22-25)

TRANSLATION:  Let me convey a great deal of my gratitude to Amakhosi, and the hon members of this House who commented regarding this policy speech.  
The hon Inkosi Mathaba spoke about the passing away of the hon member, our brother Mthembu.  If I can speak honestly, we were all very touched by the death of this member, particularly we in the Traditional Affairs Portfolio Committee.

My brother Mthembu was a man with whom one was able to have discussions.  Even when things went wrong, you would see he was not an excitable person, he took things calmly and sat down for constructive discussions.  Therefore, I agree with Inkosi when he says we all lost out by the passing away of our brother Mthembu.

I do not know what I will do regarding this issue of salaries because one has talked about it so many times.  I do not know what members are saying.  In my speech I said for the President to talk about the issue of salaries was a result of the pressure from all Amakhosi of South Africa.

We, in KwaZulu-Natal, are the ones who asked all Amakhosi for a meeting in Durban.  It was our pressure that made him say Amakhosi's salaries should be increased.  Then he did not provide the money for paying Amakhosi.

I do not know about this President who is being commended, yet he did not bring the money.  It is similar to saying, eat my children and yet you do not provide the food.

Now, I do not know why all these compliments.  What has he really done, or are the compliments just for what he said.  If the compliments are for saying what he said, then I too commend the talking.  But, there was no action on the side of the President.  

Even Amakhosi who had wanted to be paid by the National Government are also now waiting, they did not agree to take the money to the President.  In all the provinces Amakhosi are refusing to take the money to the top because that happened.

Regarding the hon Inkosi's speech about Heritage Functions, I think we have rectified and worked on the issue of Heritage with the Department of Education and Culture.  Therefore, I spoke about it here.

Yes, problems with members attendance at Portfolio Committees does happen from time to time.  We think it has to be rectified as we are going to enter a new phase of work.

Madondo, the attorney, also spoke about the issue of the Amakhosi, saying that the salaries of Amakhosi should be uniform.  He stated that the KwaZulu Government made a distinction in terms of education and so on.

The KwaZulu Government was not foolish by doing that.  The KwaZulu Government called a meeting of Amakhosi that they should be encouraged to send the children to school to elevate their level of education.     

Indeed, as a result of that many Amakhosi went to school.  That is why Amakhosi have improved from that image of not being too clever.  That is what created that change.

Therefore, that is the situation.  I heard the situation of paying Izinduna.  When we discussed the issue of Amakhosi's salaries at the MINMEC, we also discussed the issue of Izinduna.  But, it was decided that the issue of Amakhosi should first be concluded before taking up that of Izinduna.

As the hon member Vezi said here, there is a problem when going to Izinduna.  We will have to sit down, discuss and advise each other because we believe that discussions will resolve the situation instead of telling Izinduna what to do.

When you go to the Tembe traditional authority, which is my traditional authority, you will find that there are 46.  T/E
(pg 93 ln 3- pg 94 ln 7)

[If you can combine Izinduna of all these traditional authorities you will find that] (pg 94 ln 10)

[Yes it has to be so because I do not know anything, but it is your people...] 
(PG 95 LN 24)

[You must answer your husband that way]
(PG 95 LN 26)

.  [You are my husband].
(pg 95 ln 28)

TRANSLATION:  To see what we can do, as the hon member said, that there are not too many Izindunas, and then maybe at that time we can see what is to be done.  But, hon members should not act as if these things are done blindly.

I heard the hon member also speaking about training Amakhosi.  If he clearly heard me reading my budget speech, he would know that I spoke about the training courses we are conducting.  I spoke about that.  If you are still saying Amakhosi should be trained why do you not admit that you are concurring with what we are saying we do, instead of pretending as if it is your advice to the Department, on something it had not recognised. 

To say that when Amakhosi's decisions are taken to court, do not hold up, means that truly you do not understand the law as it relates to Amakhosi.  You have never sat down with an Inkosi who would show you so that you can learn.  Once an Inkosi decides on a case, that case is registered with the magistrates court. 

If that person disagrees with the Inkosi's decision, he is compelled legally or a messenger is sent to him.  That happens.  If you say an Inkosi's decision is null and void, I am truly surprised, where do you stay?  You are from Msinga.  Here is the hon Mtetwa, he can advise you if you do not know how it is done.  That happens. 

We also ask that the members reduce the animosity that exists between certain members and the Amakhosi.  We are going to elections and when there is such talk in this House where you find people attacking Amakhosi, Amakhosi are listening at the other end.  These are the things that will cause Amakhosi to reject you in their area because they heard you speak in Parliament, demonstrating that you do not even want to see Amakhosi.

And then there is this nonsense of saying Amakhosi should be above political matters.  You know, that is really nonsense.  I told the President that no one will tell us that we should be above politics.  The President should invite Amakhosi for discussions.  That is something you do not want.  If we say there should be discussions, you reject that because you want Amakhosi to be told what to do.

You will find it difficult to govern, even for the government it will be difficult to function, if you think you have muscle, you can just say it will be done; that we will dance to your music.  We, Amakhosi will not dance.  We will opt to stop existing, in whatever way, but we will not dance for nonsensical things.

People must know that there should be discussions.  I am saying Amakhosi are also human beings.  If there is an issue, sit down with Amakhosi and discuss and see how far we get.  But not that these young boys, young children, young men and sometimes young women of no consequence, should be found talking about Amakhosi.  That does not contribute to dignity and respect.  If you do not respect Amakhosi, they too will not respect you.  You should know that.  
I think that the hon Mtetwa clearly told us about the programme that the KwaZulu Government was planning before the 1994 elections.  The issues being discussed were already planned by the KwaZulu Government, for instance the involvement of Amakhosi in local government.  

There were proposals that were already made.  But due to the manner in which you took over governance at national level, you refused to have discussions.

This is what I have been saying to the State President.  He should come so that we can talk about these things.  If he agreed, we would have long resolved these things.  But, if he shouts from the top, on TV on the radio, we will not hear because you cannot shout at Amakhosi, you have to discuss with them.

Therefore, I think that as the hon Mtetwa advised regarding the building of courts and their objectives, if the hon members truly want this situation resolved, they should maybe take that advice, that explanation and that assistance.

The hon member spoke about the traditional title deed in the areas of Amakhosi.  In this House you sometimes hear people talking about people living in traditional areas.  I cannot even tell you how long it has been since I last heard of a person who has been removed from an Inkosi's area.

It is because Amakhosi were asked long ago, not to do that.  All those people in this House who say Amakhosi remove people from traditional areas, people who know nothing about standing up know nothing about the traditional areas.  T/E
(pg 95 ln 30- pg 96 ln 36)

TRANSLATION:  I think that the hon member Mr Naicker spoke the truth when he said another thing that has to be done in this House is this thing about the meetings of Portfolio Committees.

Mr Naicker said it happens that sometimes they are held on the same day.  Most of the Portfolio Committees are on Wednesday.  Wednesday is Cabinet day.  I cannot leave Cabinet to go to the Portfolio Committee.

It often happens that way.  Sometime there are two Portfolio Committee meetings at the same time, on the same day and sometimes at separate venues or at the same venue.  Another thing that the House has to work at is that Portfolio Committee meetings should be placed in a way that conforms with the existing circumstances.

I do not understand what it means to talk about neutrality on the side of Amakhosi because I spoke about this a while back and I said let us go to Durban.  I made an example with my brother Mlaba in Durban.  I said my brother Mlaba is a Mayor in Durban, and yet he is an ANC member.  Do you mean to say when taking decisions he is always impartial towards the ANC people.

Are you saying, as he is presiding over people who are under an Inkosi, he sometimes takes decisions that favour ANC people?  When it comes to Amakhosi, why then do you say if an Inkosi is a member of a particular organisation, when he decides on a case, the other person loses because he is not of the same party as the Inkosi.  Why do you demean the dignity of Amakhosi in that way.  That is all.

We hear that the Constitution recognises the presence of Amakhosi.  But the recognition of the Constitution means nothing because it speaks of Amakhosi and a full stop.  If that is what the Constitution is saying, then it means nothing to us.

I concur with the hon member that Amakhosi should also be present at local government level.  If Amakhosi are not there, fine.  But you will have difficulty because no councillors will work successfully if they take decisions without the involvement of Amakhosi.  There will be difficulty.

That is what we are saying there should be a meeting.  Why do you have an aversion to having a meeting with Amakhosi and the councillors for discussions in order to take a decision?  But that is happening here in the regional councils of KwaZulu-Natal.  We are together and there is no chaos.

We are not facing problems because we are together, we are addressing issues together, that is why there is no controversy in KwaZulu-Natal.  But in other provinces, where Amakhosi are not in district councils, there is conflict and fighting.  Therefore, let Amakhosi be present where there are discussions.  What is it you want to discuss in the absence of Amakhosi?  What do you want to say about Amakhosi in their absence?  Allow Amakhosi to be present.  T/E
(pg 98 ln 6-32)

TRANSLATION:  I think I agree with the hon member, Mrs Mchunu, when she says it is sad when you see our people - even this issue of Amakhosi is not getting resolved because of our people who are fighting the institution of the Monarchy.

I do not know how clever it seems to people of other nations, even those in this Parliament, when they see our people fighting in this way with their Monarchy.  They will see that there is still a long way to go.

You know if this argument emanates from the whites and the Indians, I would understand it.  But, how much more when it is our people who are rejecting their structures.  You should be saying, could we not do this and that in order to improve this structure.  We are fighting it, saying Amakhosi should be removed.  You are saying we should go and stay in the kitchen.

I do not know how you really think it will be like....  I agree with the member when she says it would have been better if I had a lot more money so we could be able to develop rural areas.

But the part in the Local Government Act which states that the Minister at national level will recognise and decide who an Inkosi is, will result in a lot of bloodshed in traditional areas, I do not want to deceive you.

First of all the Minister at national level knows nothing about the institution of the Monarchy.  Therefore, he cannot recognise that a person is an Inkosi without having sat down with us, without having sat down with the families of Amakhosi and without having sat down with the existing structure relating to the Monarchy.

It is fine, do that, but it is good that we are telling you  before the whole world, that you are creating a problem whereby this country will never be governable.  There will be violence of such high proportions that this country will be ungovernable.

We plead with you that the Minister will have to follow existing channels and be told about the presence of each Inkosi here.  As I said before, if there is an Inkosi who was wrongly installed, because you have money, then go and tell him to press charges so that the case can be heard.  If you win, we will alter the decision and install an Inkosi approved by the judge.

But things should not be done by force because force will not help us in any way except that it will lead to the loss of lives and the presence of orphans.  Force will not help us in any way.

What is most painful regarding this 13% they talk of is that before elections they were saying black people have 13% and whites have 87%.  Now, after elections, the very black people are demanding the very little 13% we have, saying it should be taken away, the very little 13%.  They say this 13% should be taken away.  What were you complaining about when you said whites have 87%.

But now its not the white people who are saying it, it is our people.  Assist me Chairperson, with that member who is wearing spectacles.  

I am scared Chairperson, it is as if that member will attack me.  I am really scared, I am thinking of really leaving now.  T/E
(pg 99 ln 32- pg 100 ln 27)

[No, it will not, Ndabezitha].
(pg 100 ln 29)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Nel asked a question here, what it is that we the IFP and the ANC are fighting over regarding traditions and the Monarchy.  I think that is a sound question because if there is a complaint, we should sit down and discuss it.  Throwing stones and shouting at each other will not help us.  Ultimately, the area in which we govern or live will not be a healthy area.

You cannot do that if your President is refusing to talk with Amakhosi.  There is nothing you can do if the father of the house refuses.

Regarding the issue of the Ingonyama Trust Act.  I heard the question regarding Amakhosi not being in the Ingonyama Trust Act.  Amakhosi are there, even if there are a few of them, they are there.  But another thing that members should know is that Ingonyama Trust Act concerns the land, and the land is not a provincial competence, it is a national competence.

Since land issues are under the National Minister, the hon Mr Hanekom, the first thing we did was to sit down with the Minister.  We agreed that when the board is selected, we should select two people and he should select two on that side.

It was the first thing we worked at and agreed upon.  He was pleased and we were pleased.  Other things, such as the title deed in traditional areas, he refused to tell me that it is you the ANC who are refusing.  I also told the hon Zuma and he was surprised.  I told Zuma that your Minister is saying it is you in the ANC who are refusing that traditional areas get title deeds.  I spoke with Minister Zuma when we were there in the Cabinet.  Zuma was surprised and he said he never talked about that.  But he said to me that I must talk to the ANC in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

He gave the perception that you are refusing.  I have never told Amakhosi about this because I still want to talk about it and hear whether you refuse.  And then I will report to Amakhosi that the ANC is refusing for them to get title deeds.  That is the situation we are talking about in the areas of Amakhosi.  Therefore, the creation of things such as the Board is like that.  
Going to the hon member Mr Kubheka over there.  Let us just be grateful that the hon member demonstrated such energy.  We are grateful for that.  But he is right to say what is happening regarding the institution of the Monarchy is going to mislead the young ones if it is not planned properly.  But I do not think it is fair for the hon member to tell us about the history of an Inkosi, who at a meeting, said people are IFP and they will be IFP.  I am not saying the member is not telling the truth.  But that is not fair to say that in the absence of Inkosi because he cannot defend himself even if he did not say that, and the member is just talking.  We cannot discuss that here as the situation that took place.  He did not say it is Gabhisa, he spoke about Vryheid, and you are talking about Gabhisa's issue.  That is the situation, hon member.  I cannot respond to something for which there is no proof.  But if there are problems, you must contact us in the Department.

Just recently we were at Empangeni to install Amakhosi.  We told Amakhosi, before the crowds, about the same thing and about election issues and issues of proper conduct.  We told them and the hon Gwala was there.

It is not that we are defending Amakhosi where they do not need to be defended.  But if they are being treated unfairly and their dignity is demeaned, we must defend them.  As you are talking about the Freedom Charter, you should not talk to us about that.  We have nothing to do with the Freedom Charter.

Therefore, I do not know what a person who quotes the Freedom Charter for us wants us to say because we have nothing to do with the Freedom Charter.  However, if you say let us discuss the Freedom Charter document, then we can place it on the table for discussion.  We understand that and we would agree to discussions.  But, you cannot tell us about something of which contents we do not know, or of the whereabouts and location we do not know.  T/E
(pg 102 ln 7- pg 103 ln 3)

[Even Prince Buthelezi was present].
(pg 103 ln 5)

[Go to him]
(pg 103 ln 7)_

[Is that what you are saying].
(pg 103 ln 9)

[Yes].
(pg 103 ln 11)

TRANSLATION:  I think that although the hon member Mr Ntombela encountered opposition, but everything he said, for some of which he was not silenced, are things that happened.  But there is nothing we can say because he met opposition and there was commotion in the House.

But what I can say about Mr Ntombela's speech is that such a situation in Parliament sometimes create a perception amongst people out there that the IFP and the ANC are at loggerheads.
Even if we are criticising each other in the process, we should do so in a way that is acceptable in the law.  It should not be done in a way that gives an impression that there is in-fighting.

But the situation of Amakhosi described by the hon member is a true reflection of what is happening in the areas of Amakhosi.

Mr Mkhwanazi clearly said he respects the Monarchy.  All the time, even when he speaks, it is clear he respects the Monarchy.  Even when he disagrees with some of the things done by Amakhosi, he does so in a manner that demonstrated respect for the Monarchy.  He disagrees with them respectfully.  It shows that he is a father, an adult.  Even amongst us, Amakhosi, Mr Mkhwanazi is one of the men we greatly respect because we know he has brains.  When he states something, he does so as a father and not in a way that disrespects Amakhosi.  That is what creates a situation where there is no peace, when disrespect and disregard for Amakhosi is demonstrated by members who think they are cleverer than us, Amakhosi.

Even if you are cleverer than us, should you tell point blank that you are cleverer than us, and not respect us if you think you are cleverer than us?  That is the only thing we are saying.  If you have something to criticise, do so properly so we will hear.  We are here to build each other, that is why we are here, but not in a disrespectful way.

We will also end up responding disrespectfully.  And then you will find the country ungovernable and without respect.  That is the existing situation.  I do not know where this thing of saying Amakhosi should not enter politics comes from because I have said Amakhosi will be in politics.

You know that as there are elections on June 2, after the elections, Amakhosi will be here, they will be here.  In Cape Town, Amakhosi will be there.  Therefore we should quit shouting about something that will not happen because that will not happen before we sit down and talk with whoever is complaining about that.

We should sit down and talk because that will not happen without that.  Let us not shout and make a noise about something that will not happen.  On 3 June, the day after the elections, you should come here and you will find Amakhosi sitting here.  Mlaba will be sitting here on the 3rd after the elections on the 2nd.  Even before Parliament opens, Amakhosi will just come and sit here so that you will see that they are present.  They will be here at that time.  Therefore, that is the situation.

Going to the last hon member, my brother Mtetwa over there.  We were very pleased with him.  We think most of what he said was true.  Thank you very much.

About the AIDS issue, if I can remind you, even if we have not set aside money for AIDS because of insufficient funds, but we have a campaign in the Department of Traditional Affairs.  We even earmarked certain civil servants of higher rank to be in AIDS committees, and in everything regarding AIDS in the Province.  My Department is making a important contribution in everything dealing with AIDS.  Therefore, the hon member should not feel bad that I did not mention it in the budget speech.  We are there.

Also, Amakhosi were the ones promoting peace in their areas.  Development was done by Amakhosi.  All that is happening here, thought to be novel, are things that Amakhosi have been doing.

There is only one thing that did not happen with the advent of the new type of government.  There were no discussions to rectify things.  All these things of developing rural areas were done by Amakhosi and their people.

When councillors and others came in, we did not sit down to allocate functions.  The councillors just took over the functions of Amakhosi.  They cancelled everything we were doing, and took it over as theirs.

That is what is upsetting us.  Why is it that you found us here, and place us aside and take everything wherever you want.  Why are you refusing to sit down with us and discuss these things.

Regarding the issue of Ilanga as stated by the member, I am not sure the member heard what he was saying.  I was commending the Ilanga and Ukhozi FM because we are able to publish environmental programmes there.  Were are able to publish them in Ilanga, we are able to broadcast them on radio.  They broadcast so people know what is being said.

Hon member, I was not talking about what you were referring to.  Even if Ilanga made a mistake regarding what you were talking about, but I was not involved in that.  I was talking about another section of the functions of Ilanga.  Therefore, that is the situation.

The hon member said that criminal cases and cases over faction fights cannot be tried in traditional courts.  That is why I am saying you must ask.  If you go to any Inkosi you will get a guide.  We, Amakhosi have the power to try criminal cases.  Cases we cannot try are stated, such as murder, rape and other such cases.  But they are stated and there are those few that we cannot try.

Even with cases involving faction fights, it is clearly stated how an Inkosi must act.  There is a guide here in KwaZulu-Natal. We do not have a problem with the governance of Amakhosi.  If an Inkosi makes a mistake, it is because he made a mistake, not because he does not know, there is a guide.

Even those that were installed last week, I gave them the guide telling Inkosi even about fines, telling them that with monetary fines, Inkosi cannot exceed a certain amount or with animals, he cannot exceed a certain number.  It is all there.

We do not rent an area here.  We have a live and standing structure.  Nyambose you must come to the office, I will help you, you are my relative, we are family you and I.  I will help you by showing you these things so that when you debate here, you should not speak about non-existent things.

With those words, Chairperson and the hon House, I am very pleased hon members that we are able to have a discussion here until we reach the conclusion of our day's work.

Thank you for all the advice you gave to my Department.  I ask that the members pass the vote.  We are very pleased.  T/E
(pg 105 ln 24- pg 107 ln 16)

[I think it would be good to thank the hon Inkosi Ngubane for greeting me respectfully when I came in].
(pg 107 ln 24)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker I just wish to hear whether it is  correct for the hon member to wear a hat in the House.  Are we at the gym, or where are we?  Are we at the unions or where are we?  I would like to please hear from you, hon Speaker, whether it is correct that hats be worn in this House.  I think that people who are suppose to wear hats are the womenfolk only.  T/E
(pg 113 ln 11)

TRANSLATION:  I think the hon member - I too, in all my life in this Parliament, have never seen a male wearing a hat.  Therefore, I would ask the hon member to take off the hat and then we can continue with the work.  Thank you.  T/E (pg 113 ln 17)

[I would like to ask something Speaker]
(pg 113 ln 20)

[If the hon member is going to ask about the hat that I have said should be removed - I do not know whether the member will be asking about that].  If the member is going to ask about something else, he may proceed.
(pg 113 ln 22)

[Speaker I was saying, what I know is that it is within procedure that on the last day of Parliament, hats are worn].
(pg 113 ln 26)

[This is not the last day.  As the Speaker, I have not said that this is the last day
(pg 113 ln 29)

[I ask that members conduct themselves appropriately because - I ask the hon member to conduct himself appropriately please].
(pg 114 ln 5)

[go and ask about him from your mother].  [LAUGHTER]
(pg 133 ln 3)

TRANSLATION:  Hon Chairperson, we who live in R293 areas, which were areas under the old KwaZulu Government, have a problem.

The problem is that when the owner of the house dies, the title deed has to be changed and be in the name of his child or his wife.  The hon Minister Hanekom made a bad proclamation making a widowed person go to a lawyer.  Previously, when a person loses someone through death, the administration took up that programme and registered him or her at the cost of only R2.  T/E
(pg 140 ln 2)

[Keep quiet and listen]
(pg 140  ln 9)

TRANSLATION:  When they go to a lawyer, they have to pay R3 000 to R5 000.

Firstly, that person does not have the money; an old women loses a husband through death, secondly a small child loses parents and the house has to be changed into his/her name.  That is a problem created for us by the hon Hanekom because in areas that were already under municipalities, the R2 system is still working.

We see that the hon Minister did not think of people and their needs, he thought of the Inkatha because R293 areas were under Inkatha.

Those people across there, who talk too much, have to sit down with the hon Minister to revise his law because there has to be an easier way for people to change ownership of their houses.  We are talking about unemployed people, we are talking about people who are sitting at home.

During my time, Chairperson, people were buried properly because we were not burying communists.  

You wanted to get people killed.  Chairperson, the hon member across there keeps complaining in this House, yet people died in violence.  He is now saying they should have been taken for burial where they died.  More people would have died.

I am pleased to tell this House that the court, an educated senior judge, concurred with me that people should not be buried at 17.  Thank you.  T/E (pg 141 ln 4)

TRANSLATION:  People are poor Mr Chairman, in Housing.  People are poor Mr Chairman.  When I think of it tears well up.  All along no one was caring for them, no on cared for them.  I happen to come from a house of poverty.

When I first started noticing, we were living in Cato Manor and then we went to Kwa-Mashu.  From Kwa-Mashu we were uprooted and we went to Kwa-Mashu Township.  A lot of people there were left.  Others were left behind, they did not get houses.  Those that were left there, were settled in houses made of wood.  Wood was arranged because for black people, just anything is done at whatever time.

So Mr Chairman, from there others were placed in two-roomed houses.  A four-roomed house that is divided into two sections for two families.  Even today nobody is caring for them.  L Section where you find that in one four room house there are 30 to 35 people, and when they go to bath in the morning they stand in the doorway, Mr Chairman, and they wash while they are standing.  I know about the problem of being without a house.  No one can convince me that he knows the housing problem more than I do, Mr Chairman.

I have stayed there up to today.  I am staying there in poverty with the people.  Because my leader, Dr M G Buthelezi, when he gave us this duty in this Parliament, it was to go and work for the people.

He did not tell us to go and read books and pages of documents.  He said go and work for the people.  And we are doing just that.  As the leader he told us to go and work for the people.

So, Mr Chairman these people from L Section, even today they are a lot in numbers, but they left us.  Why?  Because the brave people today ended up building informal settlements.  They built the unwanted informal settlements.

Mr Shabalala ended up building Lindelani, building it with his own hands.  People wanted shelter.  People wanted informal settlements, a place to stay.

Now, I mean that.  Dr Buthelezi the leader of the IFP taught us.  In everything he taught us, he said serving the people is the answer.  He said learn and do it yourselves.  I am pleased when I hear the Minister saying help the people to help themselves.

The problem Mr Chairman, we talk about it and we can write books about this.  We become disheartened when we talk about such sensitive matters, about the issue of houses.  We find some of our brothers in this House laughing, being scornful and saying everything they can possibly say, when Dr Mandela himself took the hard road to freedom.  The road to freedom is difficult.  That is what he is saying.

Yet, there are people who still do not hear that, even to today.  There is still fighting over positions.  Our Premier is saying that we must unite and make the Province a good home, Mr Chairman.

The Constitution of the State of KwaZulu, where he says we must unite, and demonstrate that we will build and be one, which is something that up to now has not happened.

We now proceed Mr Chairman, and ask for how long will these people be poor.  I am hopeful when we see Mr Singh taking action, we can see Mr Singh taking action, and doing what is appropriate to fight for the poor people.

We now have an opposition Mr Chairman, it is an organisation, the ANC, it is quite a big organisation the ANC, and I appeal to the ANC not to stand in the path of freedom.

Let us unite Mr Chairman, and act as one.  The Premier has said whatever the situation, I want freedom.  I want the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to be free.  I do not have to talk for a long time because I know what we want and what the people want.  I stay with them.  I sleep with them and I awake with them in the morning.  At 4:00 am they crowd the doorway.  My wife can testify to that.

They say Bhengu, what in fact are you doing in Parliament?  What are you doing in Parliament?  Where are the houses?  Where are the houses that were promised by the ANC.  You are no longer available.  It is hard for the ANC to go to the people and say we are sorry, we are really sorry.  It is failing.  It is unable to do that.  We are here to unite with our brothers and sisters and to unite as one.

I know of a leader that I respect even though he has departed from this world.  Inkosi A J Luthuli.  He fought for us when we were in bondage.  He said we must demand a pound a day.  Even today I take my hat of when we talk of him.  He was a great fried and a great leader of our nation.

He was present in the ANC.  The reason we left, was because they said there should be an armed struggle.  Our leader said no.  He said he would not fry his people, by handing them over to be destroyed by Afrikaners armed with guns because they were more powerful than us.  So Mr Chairman, all I am saying to you today is that people do not have houses.  Their freedom is not protected.  There are many issues that are not in order.  This House, Mr Chairman has to unite and build one thing which will please the people.  T/E
(pg 155 ln 5)

[informal settlements]
(pg 163 ln 17)

[Let us proceed.  We have come to the end of our order paper]
(pg 168 ln 8)

TRANSLATION:  The Premier has been held up by important work at his office.  He had hoped to complete it and be able to make it to Parliament.  He apologises, due to the pressure of work, he has been unable to and wishes the House a good adjournment, a safe trip home, and a pleasant Easter.  I am in the Premier's old office in Parliament.  T/E
(pg 171 ln 18)

[Thank you hon member]
(pg 171 ln 21)









